Sunday, October 16, 2005

Oh Ciaran, Your Arrogance Makes Me Weep

Oh Lord, below is a comment I got to my post "The End Times are Like a Woman In Labor." As you read it, notice how Ciaran seethes with arrogance. He's going to "school me," he says. And then he proceeds to trash my religious beliefs, judging me, as though he is the Lord, himself. Read his comment carefully, though. Notice how he twists my words, and notice how he simply misunderstands them.

"aaahhhhh.... well Nathaniel you're forcing me to do it, I’m going to now have to school you in what appears to be focal point in your sad, misguided life. But before I start don’t get me wrong at least your eyes are on the right guy. Now class is in session. First of all "and so too will God come back to us" God doesn't turn to us. Its our job to turn to god. Your going to want to remember that point it's going to be on the test later. If we ask for help god will come get us in the darkness but not unless we turn to him first... wait ... sorry who am I to say what gods gonna do .... that would make me sound like you. You think Jesus only started to learn the word at age 12? Man cmon ... that’s one part of the bible where you hear that he is gifted when it comes to this stuff and why shouldn't he be, he is the son of god... "Therefore, Traditional Christian Families, it is imperative, for the sake your children’s immortal souls that you use only the strictest, most severe, and most harsh physical means imaginable to correct your children when they start to exhibit any sinful nature, and in particular when they start to question authority" Now let me ask you something was Jesus displaying a sinful nature when he went off and didn’t let his parents know what was up? Somehow I don't think so... I'm guessing his parents forgave him, he apologized for the misunderstanding and he was subject to them, not Joseph beat him with a stick and he didn’t question authority again till he was 30. Which brings me to a good point... most of what Jesus did in his time was by most peoples of the time opinion questioning authority. What do you have to say to that? You know what I probably don't care what you have to say to that. It's probably just more mindless drivel. Now to my mind being corrupted by sin... you know what it's not just my mind it's every inch of me. But that’s not the reason that your not getting through to me... you're not getting through to me because your message is EVIL....... and I put on the amour of the lord to protect me from crap like this. But here’s the thing this site is good.... its good for you.... it's good because you can go back and look at all the stuff you've said and then hopefully you can do some serious soul searching and think ... would Jesus actually be saying this type of stuff and then between you and him be it .... god doesn't love...... god is love... that’s it ...he is love... so how can something that is pure love becoming out with this... it's simple... he wouldn't.... "

Point 1:
Ciaran accuses me of representing that it is not we that must turn to God, but God who comes to us. Well, sure, if you read half of the sentence that is what I say; however, read the phrase in context:
But eventually, after the wife turns back into the beautiful woman he married, the husband comes back to the wife, and so too will God come back to us

If you read and UNDERSTAND the entire quote, I am basically saying that, like a wife who must exercise and eat right and take care of herself, such that her husband will again find her attractive, we must exercise our faith, eat the words of the Lord, and take care to walk a path of righteousness, before God will come back to us. And what exactly does this mean? That once we turn to Him, He will come back. Now maybe I added an extra step. God is God afterall, so He doesn't literally need to walk over and give us a great big hug; it'll be more along the lines of an instantaneous transport device and God will suddenly bless the Earth with his glory save us from the end times. Of course this is pure speculation; I really have no idea what it'll be like, only that it will be glorious.

Point II
Ciaran then goes on to criticize something said in another post, "The Importance of Harsh Physical Discipline." (Note:I did not write that post; it was brother in Christ Dr. Parnell). I find his problem, however, somewhat offensive. Because Jesus was not beaten or spanked for running off as a child, for some reason we're not supposed to physically punish our children? Does Ciaran not realize that Jesus was the Son of God? He ran off because he had good reason to; but when our children disobey, it is out of pure insolence and disrespect for authority. Of course I am entirely generalizing; maybe there's a child out there who is also a son of God and also has good reason to disobey his or her father or mother. Hopefully, however, God will have let the boy's parents in on this fact -- perhaps via virgin birth -- so they too will know not to beat the child. Ciaran follows this train of logic to propose that, because Jesus questioned authority, children too should be able to question authority. Again, this is offensive. I would say it's the exact opposite: it's because he questioned authority that children should not. They -- WE -- are not Jesus, so attempting to mimic every part of his life is futile and ultimatily dangerous. Allowing children to question authority will lead only to their having a God complex. And I think that is the heart of Ciaran's problem: he has a God complex.

Point III
Elsewhere in his comment, Ciaran further proposes that when I address the world's problems I think of what Jesus would say. This, to a point, of course, is good advice. Jesus' love and compassion for us is unsurpassed, and the world needs more love and compassion in it. But the fatal flaw in this argument is that if a man were to cut Jesus, Jesus would love him; if the man were to then punch him, love would still abound; and on and on it would continue, and Jesus would be filled with love. And Jesus, son of God, can do that; and he was meant to do that, as an example of God's love for us. But we are not Jesus or God; if we allow someone to cut us and continue to beat us, the world would collapse into chaos.

I feel the need to respond to Ciaran not because I am angry at his words, but because they make me want to weep. They are representative of a much larger problem that afflicts the Christian community, as well as the nation as a whole. They are so arrogant, so sure that they can walk the path Jesus himself walked, they are willing to allow this nation -- the world, even -- to be overrun with un-Godliness for the sake of love and compassion. Abortionists infiltrate their neighborhoods: judge not lest ye be judged. Homosexuals marry in their churches: Jesus loves even sinners. Murderers and thieves steal: Jesus loves them; therefore, we can do no more than slap them on the wrist. God, Himself, did not behave as Calian suggests. Remember, for example, He commanded Moses to conquer the Midianites; and once that battle was won, all the males, including children, were slain, as were the women who had known a man by lying with him. By Ciaran's standards, God is evil, which, I think, tells us all we need to know about him and his ideas...


Blogger Gregory said...

Ha! That'll teach him to mess with you, brother Nathaniel!

3:31 PM  
Blogger Chris said...

Need I remind you "doubting Thomas, that your brother Nathaniel also has a "God complex" as he sees it ok for him to judge people "as if he was the Lord himself", your brother Nathaniel can be quoted as saying: "I have accepted the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior, which gives me the right judge others in terms of punishments here on Earth"

I personally think that your brother Nathaniel (although he is focused on the right guy) is confused and really needs to not only say that he has given his life to Jesus, but also consider following his teachings.

Jesus did say that you should not forgive a man 7 times, but 77 times.

God Bless, and goodnight.

10:31 PM  
Blogger Nathaniel said...

i really think, chris, that you need to separate judgment from punishment. so perhaps i misspoke. i think i have a right to punish people (or at least think of punishments) here on earth. of course i'll leave the judging to God. and while i wish i had the capacity for love and forgiveness that jesus does, i am a sinner and therefore doubt my ability to forgive a man 77 times. i think my capacity for forgiveness stands at approximately 4 times. This, of course, makes me a weak person; but it is my hope that my prayers and my acceptance of jesus will eventually lead to my becoming a better man. until then, after 4 times of personally being wronged by someone, I do believe they should be tortured, although really this is just an approximation, as it depends on a) my mood and b) what, exactly, they did to me. at the same time, i truly feel that after their being tortured and after much prayer i will still be able to forgive them and love them as my fellow man.

11:32 AM  
Blogger Sorcha said...

But the fatal flaw in this argument is that if a man were to cut Jesus, Jesus would love him; if the man were to then punch him, love would still abound; and on and on it would continue, and Jesus would be filled with love. And Jesus, son of God, can do that; and he was meant to do that, as an example of God's love for us. But we are not Jesus or God; if we allow someone to cut us and continue to beat us, the world would collapse into chaos.

what about turning the other cheek? what about when Jesus tells the disciples seventy times seven...i just it hard to incorporate these ideas into the core teachings of the gospel.

and where did you learn all of this stuff?

10:38 PM  
Blogger Nathaniel said...

where did i learn all of this stuff? from reading the bible and prayer. what i would like to know is where you learned to interpret the bible. i am glad you were not president during 9/11, because our country would now lie in a smoking pile of ruins.

it is easy to incorporate the ideas of this site into the core teachings of the gospel. forgiveness, love, turning the other cheek -- this is all something that is to be done at a personal level, not at the expense of our safety and well being. we can punish yet forgive and love. we can be hurt and turn the other cheek by continuing to love those that attack us, while at the same time crippling them and ensuring they never hurt us again.

you, i am afraid, use the gospels to be weak.

7:04 AM  
Blogger Sorcha said...

your conclusions are so funny :) the very idea of one being weak because of doing their utmost to be like Jesus. I'm sure He would chuckle at the idea that His actions and His example on earth made Him (or any trying to be like Him, even in today's world) be Weak. :) oh my.

God tells me to just continuing praying for folks like you, that you will turn your passion into something useful, and turn your eyes towards love instead of vengeance and righteous indignation.

He also tells me to remind everyone that it is His place to judge, no human, no matter who they've accepted as their saviour has the right to judge.

Peace and prayers Nathaniel and Co. I will pray that your hours of prayer will bring you out of this dark place you are in. i've got his Joy Joy Joy Joy down in my heart...hope someday you will too.

8:22 AM  
Blogger Nathaniel said...

sorcha, i must be talking to a brick wall or perhaps you've been so corrupted by the decadence of today's society you simply cannot listen. if feelings of love for criminals and the filth of society allows you to feel better about your life while allowing you to escape ever having to take action to cleanse the unholiness around you, then that is not a very useful or worthwhile life.

but i digress. you seem to miss my point and/or misunderstand my words. one can love those they punish. Jesus, I think, will still love those that don't embrace him and are condemed to an eternity of hell after the glorious appearing. He loves those that commit horrible crimes.

Also, I am not judging the people I wish to punish. I do not know what's in their heart. God will know. What I do know is that there should be consequences when society has been wronged. What I also know is that currently there are not enough consequences and/or the consequences are too weak.

11:09 AM  
Blogger Ciaran said...

Hello friends and psychopaths in christ.... Sorry i havent been so quick to get back to you guys i've just been out having a life thats taking me on the fast track to hell.... so it appears theres been alot said since i last left... wow theres so much for me to say about all of this... i just dont think i have the time to devote it this tho.... wow..... like ... wow... Nat my boy I love you man your great i wish you lived in my area code so you could come to my next party.... like i havent laughed this hard since the first time i seen home alone.. what a good flick eh... eehhh you probably didn't like it and see some evil flaw with it but hey... I'm gonna try to keep it short and sweet... I don't give two gorillas asses what moses did in his time.. that was his time not mine... didn't he end up smashing up the rules written by the hand of god not to long after god gave them to him? aahh well who cares god still forgave him... Anyway jesus is my god and savior not moses... so the covenent god made with moses is between him, moses, and moses people... i care about the new covenent that was made by/with jesus and the one rule jesus gave us which still incompasses all the old rules but makes it alittle easier to follow alot more "black and white" as the good doctor would put it "love others as i have loved you" its so simple i love it... so im guessing that means jesus wants us to try and walk that path he walked even if we fall even if we wander off it... i'm thinking by that rule that what gods thinking is if everyone acts like that the world will not collapse into chaos... but to me it already looks kinda chaotic right now with all these people not acting like that... it's to bad your not willing to give it a try Nat ... i mean four thats not even close to 7 times 77... and i mean after four times you jump into torture... what about just ignoring them, cut them out of your life so they don't have a chance to wrong you again?? I mean wouldnt that be alittle closer to what god might want then torture? God help that kid a Wendy's who short changes you a couple times or the pizza guy who just cant ever seem to make it there in 30 mins even tho they said it would be there.... down to the basement with him for an amputation session i guess? Heres my question? how can you punish if you first don't judge? wouldn't they be just random acts of violence if you hadn't of thought to yourself first "look at what this guy did im going to go do this to him." So what are you just dreaming up punishments so that one day god might turn to you and say "hey Nat im all out of ideas on what to do to this sinner what do you think we should hit em with?" and you can whip out your book o'punishment and say "get him with the tar god, that'll learn em" man you guys are a riot... Trusting Tom just so u know it's written that the lord comes back in the way in which he left so.... i dunno last time i checked jesus wasnt posting all over the internet before he assended into heaven. And as far as Nat and no falsehoods? Cmon are you really a 12 year old boy? Because i dont think so.... maybe its been 12 years since you started down this road ... but not since you showed up on the planet.....because i mean cmon what kind of black guy is going around beating kids close to death in the shower?? aahh like i said i love you guys, the more i think about it the more the lord reveals his love for all his creations to me .... the way i look at it ... u ever been to your friend's party and he has that one way over the top friend who your just like why the hell are u friends with this guy?and he's just like man i think he's great you gotta know him...thats what i feel like is happening right now i just walked in JC's bash and im looking at him and then looking at you and going what the hell??? and he's going man the guys great you should see some of these rants ... talk about off the wall and kinda shruggs at me and then me and jc go get a brew and let you continue on your little more thing Nat I go by love the sinner hate the sin im not a fan of any sins but i focus on the good in people or at least i try to because that good in them is going to be their likeness to god and god always wants me to keep my eyes on him no one else ... not moses not guys on the internet ....aahh well Now my question for Jimmy.. can i call you Jimmy? Because i make it a habit to see peoples credentials before I start giving them respect beyond what i would give any normal person off the street. anyway my question.... Didnt god give Solomon wisdom so he could disearn things ?? wasn't God happy when thats what Solomon asked for? Im pretty sure it says that.. i dunno i'll have to go look to make sure but .. i think its something along those lines... who knows maybe god was having an off day?... wait im sure you and your crack team have the anwsers.... i know maybe something like this ... get together build a time machine go back and the good doctor can give Solomon a frontal labotamy and dont give him any drugs to dull the pain .... then he'll know and that will teach him not to think right Trusting Tom?? hahahaha anyway you guys are Champs I really mean that keep up the good work guys... and i'll keep praying for you you guys keep praying for me because god turns all things to good for those who love him.... and i do love him even if hes "evil in my opinion" ps thanks for putting my whole post to you on the main page there for everyone to see... i like how u left out the part where i tell you im going to pray for u and ask that u pray for me.... but hey i think most of the people who come across this site see it for what it is.... peace boys.

2:24 PM  
Blogger Nathaniel said...

ciaran believes in utopia, like he's Ayn Rand or a communist. sure, if everyone followed the path of jesus, the world would not collapse into chaos. just like if everyone were equal and didn't need incentives to work communism would be a great idea. Or if we just left people to their own devices to make the most out of the world, forgetting the sinful nature of humans and the fact that the powerful take advantage of the weak, Ayn Rand would be right. yet we don't live in such a perfect world. not everyone follows the path of jesus or even believes in him, choosing to follow their own path and/or that we decended from monkeys. to make matters worse, we are sinful by nature and some of us are even evil, so it is important that those that don't follow jesus' path are made to or taken off the path all together with random disfigurement.

and i'm especially horrified that ciaran can dismiss moses so easily, as though jesus and god exist in a vacuum. by ciaran's logic we should just remove the ten commandments from the schools and courts. i suppose he thinks god simply evolved from this being that slew cities for turning away from Him into this compassionate guy who forgave all sins and offered no consequences. as though He was like, "damn, this fear of God thing isn't working; I think I'll try something new." maybe the old testament god was a monkey, and the new testament god is human.

as for the idea that i would torture somebody for pissing me off, well, that's a simple misrepresentation of my words. disfigurement is for only extreme cases, like murder, rape or theft. while i don't deny that pissing me off approximately 4 times deserves some sort of consequence and that i'm a weak person for not immediately being able to forgive, i don't condone torture for simply being irritating.

in any event, i hope ciaran visits again soon. he may be wrong, but he provides for much interesting discussion.

3:07 PM  
Blogger Ciaran said...

The new testament god is human.. thats the whole point of the new testament isnt it?? to show that god humbbled himself to become human... To make a new covenent ... and god does change his mind and evolves if you want to put it that way ....after he flooded the earth he promised to never to do that again... maybe he just promised that because that was boring for him and he wanted to do something alittle more fun and less time consumming next time round

3:37 PM  
Blogger Ciaran said...

And wait asecond didnt you say that you wouldnt be able to walk jesus's path because that was for him to do and not you?? so does that mean we should disfigure you? Also u didnt address my questions on punishment without judgement is this a random act of violence? are you a 12 year old boy? and just so you know i dont dismiss moses so easy i just put what my god says first and if he has to come to earth himself to give me his word because people who im guessing not unlike yourself have been messing it up for years then proceed to die for my sins so i can be near him and he can shower me with his love in the afterlife im gonna pay attention to him... not the guy with the temper who gets pissed at people and throws stuff

3:52 PM  
Blogger Sirius said...

Wait let me get this straight, God thinks of humans like a guy thinks of a hot chick?

I have look pretty for God to turn to me?

Hmmm, now I THOUGHT that I had to be good so God would accept me when I turn to him.

Hmmmm... Odd. I guess I should make myself cheap and hot so God will pick me up on the street corner.

4:58 PM  
Blogger Nathaniel said...

karizma, i think you misunderstood my point. you only have to be pretty for your man to turn to you. that is your duty as a woman, just as it is the man's duty to provide for you. i was simply saying that we are like a woman and we have a duty to God before He will be there for us the way a man will be for his woman.

5:59 PM  
Blogger Sirius said...

As I said before, let's not make assumptions about people.

I believe I must have clearly and utterly misunderstood what you originally said, because even reading it over it seems like as a person I'm trying to seduce God? Something about that doesn't seem right.

Somebody should love me just for the sake of who I am.

6:29 PM  

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